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#1 14.Sep.18 10:14:15

Barleycorn
Member

Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

eg, local implications of Brexit currently being mentioned.

Very timely & relevant and personally I would like to hear (and discuss politely) various aspects.


For example - our man on the spot.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_contin … MHcmVzNpH4

???

Local implications are still vague - which in itself raises questions of how some can be so certain of their decision.


Or - is this forum a relic of early web days, slowly declining due to other more populous options and, in part, the strict house rules.

Last edited by Barleycorn (14.Sep.18 10:15:58)


I went through ALL your posts, found nothing,

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#2 14.Sep.18 10:24:17

Milly Savage
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

The strict house rules have spoiled the forum in my opinion.

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#3 14.Sep.18 10:39:47

Barleycorn
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Well it is certainly more restrained...    perhaps too much so, albeit the reasons were clear and valid.

It's tricky.


I went through ALL your posts, found nothing,

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#4 14.Sep.18 11:57:29

Milly Savage
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

It's gone too far to get it back as it was now. We've lost too many members due to it.

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#5 14.Sep.18 22:29:35

China Girl
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

I am always nearly posting things but then think 'is that too political' and I am not even a political person at all.  Goodness knows how you manage to restrain yourself from political posts Barley  wink

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#6 15.Sep.18 07:11:22

Philpot
Banned

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Royton voted for Brexit so it is indeed a local topic Barleycorn

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#7 15.Sep.18 09:12:27

Barleycorn
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Philpot wrote:

Royton voted for Brexit so it is indeed a local topic Barleycorn

Did I say it wasn't? 

neutral

Who voted for what is not in question - not what the thread title refers to, nor any of the comments.


I went through ALL your posts, found nothing,

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#8 15.Sep.18 18:44:45

Philpot
Banned

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Barleycorn wrote:
Philpot wrote:

Royton voted for Brexit so it is indeed a local topic Barleycorn

Did I say it wasn't? 

neutral

Who voted for what is not in question - not what the thread title refers to, nor any of the comments.

Indeed Barleycorn

And do you know why Royton voted for Brexit?

To stem the tide of uncontrolled immigration which has transformed parts of our local town and cities into unrecognisable ghettos


That’s why

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#9 16.Sep.18 17:58:07

Barleycorn
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Philpot wrote:
Barleycorn wrote:
Philpot wrote:

Royton voted for Brexit so it is indeed a local topic Barleycorn

Did I say it wasn't? 

neutral

Who voted for what is not in question - not what the thread title refers to, nor any of the comments.

Indeed Barleycorn

And do you know why Royton voted for Brexit?

To stem the tide of uncontrolled immigration which has transformed parts of our local town and cities into unrecognisable ghettos


That’s why



They are going to be sadly disappointed then, and probably quite angry.  Or angrier.


I went through ALL your posts, found nothing,

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#10 16.Sep.18 20:53:50

Philpot
Banned

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Barleycorn wrote:
Philpot wrote:
Barleycorn wrote:

Did I say it wasn't? 

neutral

Who voted for what is not in question - not what the thread title refers to, nor any of the comments.

Indeed Barleycorn

And do you know why Royton voted for Brexit?

To stem the tide of uncontrolled immigration which has transformed parts of our local town and cities into unrecognisable ghettos


That’s why



They are going to be sadly disappointed then, and probably quite angry.  Or angrier.

And who should they blame for that Barleycorn ?

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#11 16.Sep.18 21:25:37

Barleycorn
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Corbyn, obviously.

wink  wink  wink


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#12 17.Sep.18 07:09:39

Philpot
Banned

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Barleycorn wrote:

Corbyn, obviously.

wink  wink  wink

Oh yes. Remind us Barleycorn. What is the leader of the oppositions policy on Brexit ?

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#13 18.Sep.18 09:23:36

Barleycorn
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

My guess would be ...

Initially, JC would have not joined.

For much of the past 40 years, JC will have been critical.  Because the EU is deeply flawed and v expensive.

In the run up to Brexit, JC advocated ' Remain & reform'.  I saw him speak, twice, very clearly about this.   In short - we are too firmly embedded, the cost of leaving is unknown/unknowable but likely to be prohibitive - better to reform from within.  Stay as a critical partner, not flounce out.

Since Brexit was voted for and Article 50 triggered,  it's tricky.

Most on the left won't weep if the EU simply collapsed.  JC included, I'm sure.   But at what cost?
Respect for the 1st vote is important - but it was flawed, badly framed and only 37% of voters chose leave.

But JC can't reverse time, so we have to deal with the outcome.   

The fact we aren't actually obliged to leave following the negotiations is inflammatory to leavers, despite Article 50 and the process it triggered being non binding, advisory outcomes.

It won't wash electorally, sadly, to simply reject the deal (whatever it ends up being) and say 'Oh well, looks like we won't bother, its a bad idea'.

Essentially, it's a lose/lose situation. 

Cameron has a lot to answer for.

Last edited by Barleycorn (18.Sep.18 09:28:28)


I went through ALL your posts, found nothing,

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#14 18.Sep.18 11:40:19

Erin
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Barleycorn wrote:

My guess would be ...

Initially, JC would have not joined.

For much of the past 40 years, JC will have been critical.  Because the EU is deeply flawed and v expensive.

In the run up to Brexit, JC advocated ' Remain & reform'.  I saw him speak, twice, very clearly about this.   In short - we are too firmly embedded, the cost of leaving is unknown/unknowable but likely to be prohibitive - better to reform from within.  Stay as a critical partner, not flounce out.

Since Brexit was voted for and Article 50 triggered,  it's tricky.

Most on the left won't weep if the EU simply collapsed.  JC included, I'm sure.   But at what cost?
Respect for the 1st vote is important - but it was flawed, badly framed and only 37% of voters chose leave.

But JC can't reverse time, so we have to deal with the outcome.   

The fact we aren't actually obliged to leave following the negotiations is inflammatory to leavers, despite Article 50 and the process it triggered being non binding, advisory outcomes.

It won't wash electorally, sadly, to simply reject the deal (whatever it ends up being) and say 'Oh well, looks like we won't bother, its a bad idea'.

Essentially, it's a lose/lose situation. 

Cameron has a lot to answer for.



Barley one question comes to mind, remind me of the percentage of voters who chose to remain?

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#15 18.Sep.18 12:03:23

Barleycorn
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

A vexed question Erin.

Cameron & co messed up the entire thing from Day 1 (inc calling the damn vote in the first place, running scared of UKIP  - but that is a different issue) and the reality is it was nothing like the much vaunted 51.9%, if you look at it objectively.

Rounding up for ease of maths, there was a 73% turnout*.

For some bizarre reason, this country-defining, generation-dividing** vote was optional, so the feckless/disillusioned/confused 30% or so just stayed at home watching Eastenders... and as 52% of 73 is just under 38%.... the 'will of the people' was actually just 38% of eligible voters - which is not even enough to call a strike under tory Union laws, and not really a mandate, imo.   

Certainly not a strong/decisive enough vote to inflict such uncertainty on the next few generations.



*Stats and facts taken from here - https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/ … nformation

**Opinions and conclusions all my own.

Last edited by Barleycorn (18.Sep.18 12:04:36)


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#16 18.Sep.18 12:27:34

Erin
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

That is a typical politically biased answer Barley  wink  if the % of voters who wanted to leave is calculable so must the % of voters who wished to remain.

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#17 18.Sep.18 14:56:57

Barleycorn
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Well, I guess it is.  Because everything is political.   

But only in a very generalised way - and it is locally relevant, given the ongoing consequences - good or bad.

If 37% of the electorate voted to leave, then 63% didn't.   

Of that 63%, just over half (around 35%) actively chose to remain, whilst 28% chose to not say either way.

(Glad I don't work for BMW or Landrover btw - uncertain times, and nothing has been signed yet!)


I went through ALL your posts, found nothing,

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#18 18.Sep.18 18:19:10

Philpot
Banned

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Barleycorn wrote:

My guess would be ...
.

You are right Barleycorn, .. you would have to guess


And that’s because Corbyn has given absolutely zero leadership on the Brexit issue

He was virtually silent during the referendum campaign and has provided only weak, pathetic and wishy washy comment ever since.

Disgraceful from the so called leader of the opposition !

Clearly he was too busy baiting the Jewish community and making friends with Islamist terrorists to find the time to get involved

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#19 18.Sep.18 20:51:58

Barleycorn
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Do you actually read posts Philpot?

I specifically said that I heard JC speak twice, before the vote, and he was clear.  1000 people inside Mcr Cathedral and c5000 outside all heard it too.

If you don't listen, you won't hear.   


Not that it is locally relevant, but hey ho.  Sadly I fear the Brexit fallout will be though - and North Manchester can ill afford many more economically challenging decades.

Last edited by Barleycorn (19.Sep.18 07:19:17)


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#20 18.Sep.18 23:10:37

Mags
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

'To stem the tide of uncontrolled immigration which has transformed parts of our local town and cities into unrecognisable ghettos'

One of the reasons I voted out....there are others.

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#21 19.Sep.18 08:48:00

exile
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Those nit wits who produced that report yesterday about not giving preference to EU migrants are only saying what many have said for years.  If you have a skill and we need that skill and you have a job to come to then come in and be welcome, wherever you come from.  What we don’t need are anymore don’t work, won’t work migrants we cornered the market in those.

People from anywhere are welcome as visitor/tourist you support yourself during your stay and you carry medical insurance. 

I won’t object to having a visitor driving license when I travel, we used to do that pre EU and I don’t mind carrying my passport as proof of identity. Visitors to the U.K. can do the same.

If any Country wants to impose taxes on our imports then we impose the same on them. It’s all self defeating in the end and sensible Countries will make their own arrangements.  Inside the EU and out.


who is bigger Mr Bigger or Mr Biggers son ? the son he is a little Bigger

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#22 19.Sep.18 09:19:50

Barleycorn
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Mags wrote:

'To stem the tide of uncontrolled immigration which has transformed parts of our local town and cities into unrecognisable ghettos'

One of the reasons I voted out....there are others.


I think folks are in for a few unhappy surprises post brexit.   Locally, people mention our towns north of Manchester as struggling with incomers - OK, but will Brexit change this, or could it, in fact, make that situation 'worse'.

Regardless of how you voted, what you think of EU/non EU immigrants - what we were told by the main campaigners bore little resemblance to the reality of migration, the economics behind it, welfare costs, tax receipts and the demand/supply pressures on UK plc as an employer.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p … 42506.html

"'If the UK’s new relationship with Europe involves reduced migration, this analysis suggests the tax burden on others will have to rise"

Don't recall Farage & co explaining that IF their plans pan out in the way they outlined, everyone may well have to pay more tax.

Last edited by Barleycorn (19.Sep.18 09:20:34)


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#23 19.Sep.18 13:21:51

ridge walker
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Now this is what i feared when phillpot joined the discussion, a one line question followed by a long explanation from Barley backed up with information and figures, not a problem for me as its his view and presents his side of the coin, no point argueing about it, Mags was right to question the percentages, 1% or one vote decides the issue, thats how election are won or lost, the referendum is no different and a 73% turnout was as good as it gets, unions like Unite take decisions on a fraction of that number, no wonder new rules were brought in, look at the Rail unions causing so much chaos to the transport system over guards on the trains, gone on far too long hitting commuters going to work, its a fight they cant afford to lose, like the remainers their intention is to stop brexit and stay in the EU whatever the deal will be they are against it as its political.

Cameron has been rubbished for calling for this, the nation has wanted it and been denighed it for decades, Ukip was formed  to bring it back to the people and by public demand yet both are turned on as if democracy only exists for the elite to decide, that its for government to run the country and we all must follow their dictats or we get rid of them in a general election, thats up to us who we vote for and thats what we did, no point now pointing out the negatives of it, we knew this from the start, we spent 40 years regretting being in it and 2 years debating it in detail, we refused to join the euro untill conditions were met, they never were, we  were prepared to take the risk on imigration and jobs and the price of fish, the idea we cant survive without foriegn workers or our NHS cannot be staffed is so insulting its akin to importing slave labour from our conquered terratories, and our commonwealth, the idea we only take the best and the most skilled workers accept agricultureal field workers considered labourers for such essential work we want to extend it, low wages, no housing, no unions no problem.   

We decided to put a halt to it and no more expansion you call it  a surprise that wont happen, you lost the arguement by 1.5 million votes, the 2% majority,  but millions more the 23% never voted, if they did the majority would even be higher, in your world they all would have voted to stay as we are, and change the system from within, its taken all those years and the system has got bigger and bigger  and with it the problems, whats changed with our MEP's and our euro ministers having a voice to protect our countries interest, only Farage has called for a complete overhaul yet you scorn his efforts, it became a club for members only not one for inividuals to engage with, its for financial institutions and for business now, who make the money but nothing more, like Gracie Fields singing about making thingy mi bobs that turned the wheel that made the world go round the EU  was a block to world trade and built fences to prevent it, they made the rules for us to follow, all they had to do was say goodby and wish us luck.

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#24 19.Sep.18 15:33:52

Barleycorn
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

"Now this is what i feared"   Sorry. neutral neutral neutral

" a long explanation from Barley backed up with information and figures"   Sorry - again!!  ( occupational hazzard wink wink )

I will try not to ramble.

All good points about the EU, btw Ridge - a deeply flawed institution.   Being in it was costly enough - leaving it looks like being even worse though.

Last edited by Barleycorn (19.Sep.18 15:34:56)


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#25 19.Sep.18 20:19:07

Philpot
Banned

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Mags wrote:

'To stem the tide of uncontrolled immigration which has transformed parts of our local town and cities into unrecognisable ghettos'

One of the reasons I voted out....there are others.

Then the majority of Royton folk will agree with you Mags

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#26 19.Sep.18 20:30:05

Philpot
Banned

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Barleycorn wrote:

My guess would be ...

Initially, JC would have not joined.

For much of the past 40 years, JC will have been critical.  Because the EU is deeply flawed and v expensive.

In the run up to Brexit, JC advocated ' Remain & reform'.  I saw him speak, twice, very clearly about this.   In short - we are too firmly embedded, the cost of leaving is unknown/unknowable but likely to be prohibitive - better to reform from within.  Stay as a critical partner, not flounce out.

Since Brexit was voted for and Article 50 triggered,  it's tricky.

Most on the left won't weep if the EU simply collapsed.  JC included, I'm sure.   But at what cost?
Respect for the 1st vote is important - but it was flawed, badly framed and only 37% of voters chose leave.

But JC can't reverse time, so we have to deal with the outcome.   

The fact we aren't actually obliged to leave following the negotiations is inflammatory to leavers, despite Article 50 and the process it triggered being non binding, advisory outcomes.

It won't wash electorally, sadly, to simply reject the deal (whatever it ends up being) and say 'Oh well, looks like we won't bother, its a bad idea'.

Essentially, it's a lose/lose situation. 

Cameron has a lot to answer for.

Really Barleycorn. Let’s dig a bit deeper

Jeremy Corbyn voted for Britain to leave the European Economic Community (EEC) in the 1975 European referendum.

Jeremy Corbyn opposed the creation of the European Union (EU) under the Maastricht Treaty – speaking and voting against it in Parliament in 1993.

During the 2016 referendum campaign, Left Leave highlighted repeated speeches he made in Parliament opposing Europe during 1993.

Jeremy Corbyn voted against the Lisbon Treaty on more than one occasion in Parliament in 2008.

In 2010, Jeremy Corbyn voted against the creation of the European Union’s diplomatic service.

Jeremy Corbyn voted for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU in 2011 (breaking the Labour whip to do so).

In 2011 Jeremy Corbyn also opposed the creation of the EU’s European Stability Mechanism, which helps members of the Euro in financial difficulties. (This vote is a good example of how Corbyn votes with hardcore Euro-sceptics. Only 26 other MPs joined him in voting against, and in their number are the likes of Euro-sceptics such as Peter Bone, Douglas Carswell, Bill Cash, Ian Paisley Junior and John Redwood.)

Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain’s participation in the EU’s Banking Authority in 2012.

In 2016 his long-time left-wing ally Tariq Ali said that he was sure that if Corbyn was not Labour leader he would be campaigning for Britain to leave the EU, whilst his brother Piers Corbyn also said that Jeremy Corbyn was privately opposed to Britain’s membership of the European Union.

Jeremy Corbyn went on holiday during the 2016 referendum campaign and his office staff consistently undermined the Remain campaign. He refused to attend a key Remain campaign launch and also attacked government ministers for publicising the Remain case, saying they should also have promoted arguments in favour of Leave vote. The Director of the Remain campaign, himself a Labour member and candidate, said, “Rather than making a clear and passionate Labour case for EU membership, Corbyn took a week’s holiday in the middle of the campaign and removed pro-EU lines from his speeches”.

During the referendum campaign, Leave.EU highlighted Corbyn’s attacks on Europe made in 1996.

The day after the European referendum in 2016, Jeremy Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of Article 50 – the two-year notice to leave the EU – much quicker than even Theresa May wanted.

In December 2016, Jeremy Corbyn voted in Parliament in favour of the UK leaving the EU and for the process to start no later than 31 March 2017.

Jeremy Corbyn three times voted in February 2017 in favour of the Prime Minister starting the process of leaving the European Union.

During the 2017 general election, the independent Channel 4 Factcheck service found very little difference between Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May over Europe.

In the summer of 2017, Jeremy Corbyn opposed Britain remaining in the Single Market. He even sacked from his team Labour MPs who voted in favour of membership of the Single Market.

So Barleycorn, I think it’s fair to say Corbyn is a leaver

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#27 19.Sep.18 23:37:11

Barleycorn
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Most of that record is clearly because JC doesn't rate the EU, now or in decades past...

Latterly, he respects the choice of the electorate (not my take on it, but he is in office, not me) so is not putting unhelpful obstacles in the way of due process. 

I suspect Labour may come out in favour of a vote to approve/drop whatever botched deal Mrs May cobbles together...   but it isn't just his choice - Brexit has split the country, families, colleagues and ... ALL the political parties.

Last edited by Barleycorn (Yesterday 09:03:18)


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#28 Yesterday 09:04:49

ridge walker
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

BIs this what i hoped for, a fleshed out reply from Philpot to Barleys post #22 that contained a link, on scrolling back Barleycorns comment are quite short but full of content, i do like philpot because he has depth with ref to #26, is he actually switching of to Barleys side that Corbyn is on the right side of the brexit negotiations alongside Theresa May, for a moment i thought Barley had written it being a corbynista, its interesting reading yet others dont agree, we dont like extremism where diversity is involved but the above is acceptable to me, my own contributions  cant match theirs as i dont copy and paste lists of facts, or attend Corbyn rallys or any other party leader or spokesperson with the microphone, however i wont get upset with these posts, i'm glad they took the time and made the effort.

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#29 Yesterday 09:11:46

Barleycorn
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

ridge walker wrote:

BIs this what i hoped for, a fleshed out reply from Philpot to Barleys post #22 that contained a link, on scrolling back Barleycorns comment are quite short but full of content, i do like philpot because he has depth with ref to #26, is he actually switching of to Barleys side that Corbyn is on the right side of the brexit negotiations alongside Theresa May, for a moment i thought Barley had written it being a corbynista, its interesting reading yet others dont agree, we dont like extremism where diversity is involved but the above is acceptable to me, my own contributions  cant match theirs as i dont copy and paste lists of facts, or attend Corbyn rallys or any other party leader or spokesperson with the microphone, however i wont get upset with these posts, i'm glad they took the time and made the effort.

Thanks - although the time you take relaying local developments dwarfs my occasional rants.


I went through ALL your posts, found nothing,

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#30 Yesterday 17:11:12

ridge walker
Member

Re: Can / could / should FB topics appear here ?

Appology for those typing errors.    Its natural to want to mention you have attended a music event or a public gathering, even a protest march, we have others like Barley who travel about  and bring a wider veriety of interests and activities that each share with us,   some would refrain from it like Philpot so i can understand SG's difficulty, he fears another troll incident so he reacts to protect the site from damage, he believes in family values, as such the changes and restrictions reflect that, we just need to see it through as we understand his reasons, i can see some suggestions have already been made and i'm sure he will consider them- the 'what to do'  is not a sign of weakness but one of consideration for the forum members even Philpot.   The suggestion we allow things to carry on for a while and your content with it being his perfect respondent, i think he is trying to find answers to a problem he sees, not realising we have passed that stage and removed it from the pages,  Whats wrong with it  is the fact it leads to frustration and even stronger opinnions being expressed that cross the line,  like Millys joke, simple really.

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